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Post by skywatcher1206 on Apr 24, 2023 18:04:07 GMT -5
To all those posters who say that DeSantis is justified as speech can have consequences, I agree. Speech can have consequences, but they should be consequences from the public, such as those who say that they will never go to Disney World again because Disney has gone woke. Consequences from the government, not so much. I do not think that anyone will change any minds in this forum though..
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Post by helenabear on Apr 24, 2023 18:42:49 GMT -5
. I do not think that anyone will change any minds in this forum though.. This! I think if people want to debate they can privately or find a better place for it. |
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Post by Brian5581 on Apr 25, 2023 2:26:55 GMT -5
Maybe it is time to move these to private discussions? I know I am holding my tongue when reading many things here, and I can imagine many would rather discuss information at hand vs reading debates on the educational system etc . I do not think that anyone will change any minds in this forum though.. This! I think if people want to debate they can privately or find a better place for it. Absolutely. Once there is a concrete consequence that actually affects us and the way we visit the parks it is certainly worth discussing. Until then it will continue to be all political bullshit. Those of us who have been here awhile are well aware of the stalwart Republicans and Democrats on the board, and those of us in between who realize just about all of the actual participants (the ones with the actual political jobs, not insulting those arguing… yet) are indeed idiots… |
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Post by helenabear on Apr 25, 2023 7:59:29 GMT -5
Maybe it is time to move these to private discussions? I know I am holding my tongue when reading many things here, and I can imagine many would rather discuss information at hand vs reading debates on the educational system etc This! I think if people want to debate they can privately or find a better place for it. Absolutely. Once there is a concrete consequence that actually affects us and the way we visit the parks it is certainly worth discussing. Until then it will continue to be all political bullshit. Those of us who have been here awhile are well aware of the stalwart Republicans and Democrats on the board, and those of us in between who realize just about all of the actual participants (the ones with the actual political jobs, not insulting those arguing… yet) are indeed idiots… Well stated! I also firmly agree about politicians being a bunch of idiots. To be personal (and transparent as one trying to get this thread to play nice) I've felt that way long before I was able to vote and to this day refuse to align with any one party because of it. It's pretty impossible to find non-idiot politicians I swear. The good ones don't run lol |
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Post by SuzanneSLO on Apr 25, 2023 9:23:45 GMT -5
Absolutely. Once there is a concrete consequence that actually affects us and the way we visit the parks it is certainly worth discussing. Until then it will continue to be all political bullshit. Those of us who have been here awhile are well aware of the stalwart Republicans and Democrats on the board, and those of us in between who realize just about all of the actual participants (the ones with the actual political jobs, not insulting those arguing… yet) are indeed idiots… Well stated! I also firmly agree about politicians being a bunch of idiots. To be personal (and transparent as one trying to get this thread to play nice) I've felt that way long before I was able to vote and to this day refuse to align with any one party because of it. It's pretty impossible to find non-idiot politicians I swear. The good ones don't run lol Even though the process of needing to run for reelection can make politicians act like idiots, I think the alternative is worse. For example, the Special District formerly known as Reedy Creek has a Board appointed by the Governor and the 5 members do not need to live in Central Florida. Whether the current agreements are voided or not, at some point decisions on zoning, road maintenance, utilities and related maintenance, fire and ambulance service, etc., will be made by this group of 5. Although public input will be allowed, the only accountability is at the Governor’s office. And no matter how many people ever reside in this Special District, it is unlikely that there will be enough that think that “the potholes should be fixed using the Special District’s budget surplus” to oust a Governor. Local governments can seem like goofballs at amateur hour but they are important part of making politicians accountable to the voters. In this case the Florida Governor specifically said that local control of the Special District would not be satisfactory because the locals were “leftist.” |
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Post by helenabear on Apr 25, 2023 9:32:59 GMT -5
Well stated! I also firmly agree about politicians being a bunch of idiots. To be personal (and transparent as one trying to get this thread to play nice) I've felt that way long before I was able to vote and to this day refuse to align with any one party because of it. It's pretty impossible to find non-idiot politicians I swear. The good ones don't run lol Even though the process of needing to run for reelection can make politicians act like idiots, I think the alternative is worse. For example, the Special District formerly known as Reedy Creek has a Board appointed by the Governor and the 5 members do not need to live in Central Florida. Whether the current agreements are voided or not, at some point decisions on zoning, road maintenance, utilities and related maintenance, fire and ambulance service, etc., will be made by this group of 5. Although public input will be allowed, the only accountability is at the Governor’s office. And no matter how many people ever reside in this Special District, it is unlikely that there will be enough that think that “the potholes should be fixed using the Special District’s budget surplus” to oust a Governor. I was talking generics. And I am not here to debate I am asking one final time nicely to take serious debates about politics elsewhere. I am hoping we won't need a rule instated but this thread is just turning into a bad debate on education and politics that I know people are tiring of based on messages I am getting. Trying to be hands off but a few here are making it hard and ignoring comments suggesting the thread not be used this way. Numerous by me and a few other mods and the like. |
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Post by brp on Apr 25, 2023 11:00:03 GMT -5
I don't think of it being in anyway a "Dumb" move by Disney. They were, as we all should do, speaking up for people on the fringes and who are marginalized by the establishment. Take a look at how many laws are being passed in Florida and other states to try to ostracize certain people in our society because of the color of their skin or sexuality or ...... “Let those who have a voice, speak out for the voiceless.” Archbishop Óscar Romero And Disney Inc had every right to do so. But see the 2nd part to my post. Speech can have consequences. Agreed. Consequences from their customer base, definitely. Even consequences from the words of public figures.
Consequences in punitive retaliation for the exercise of free speech? No. The constitution protects that free speech from these sorts of legislative "consequences." So, no, these are not legal "consequences."
Edit: I see that skywatcher1206 basically covered this as well a bit after the post I responded to...
Cheers.
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Post by helenabear on Apr 25, 2023 11:36:04 GMT -5
And Disney Inc had every right to do so. But see the 2nd part to my post. Speech can have consequences. Agreed. Consequences from their customer base, definitely. Even consequences from the words of public figures. Consequences in punitive retaliation for the exercise of free speech? No. The constitution protects that free speech from these sorts of legislative "consequences." So, no, these are not legal "consequences." Edit: I see that skywatcher1206 basically covered this as well a bit after the post I responded to... Cheers.  |
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Post by oldhalfelf on Apr 25, 2023 15:12:58 GMT -5
Vis-a-vis the immediate "concrete consequences" acceptable as a discussion topic, I offer the following, which I consider orthogonal to the nettlesome debating points above. (Is this post a squirrel?) Those of us who depend in whole or part upon the stock market for our retirements, and who study the "markets" tab of the WSJ (or Barrons, or similar sources) will be used to articles claiming that traders variously have or have not "already priced in" the probabilities of specified future events. Such events include the Fed raising, holding, or lowering rates, or the EPA announcing new air quality measures, or changes in employment or inflation figures. For those unfamiliar with "pricing in", here are two recent example articles: www.barrons.com/articles/stock-bond-market-fed-rate-warnings-d0ef2f6e (which also provides a great photo of the Marx brothers, for squirrel purposes) and www.barrons.com/livecoverage/stock-market-today-040623/card/stock-futures-wobble-ahead-of-u-s-jobs-report-yU7VWN6N1dglxVNH2hVU?mod=md__news . The latter includes the (putatively three significant figure) statement, "Markets are currently pricing in a 48.3% chance that the central bank holds rates as-is, according to the CME FedWatch Tool." So, my questions regarding immediate concrete consequences are whether (a) DVC and/or (b) DVC point renters and buyers are already "pricing in" probability estimates of a recently proposed, Aulani-like WDW "transient visitor" or hotel tax within the DVC and resale price points and sales projections and ROFR decisions. As a Disney shareholder, I hope and believe the answer to "a" surely should be "yes", as a matter of good business economics analysis. The "b" question seems harder, given the inflationary and other factors affecting resale buyers, sellers, and brokers. Another MagicOwners thread mentions the low prices and high inventory in the resale market currently, as well as broker reluctance to submit low offers to sellers. It might be a good PhD dissertation topic to try and de-convolute the market's future probability estimates of a transient visitor tax from the effects of unrelated inflation, etc. In particular, I wonder if independent DVC point price behavior in CA and HI could give clues. I do not recall seeing detailed state- versus-state price behavior analyses in MouseOwners or MagicOwners, correcting for resort ages and other non-state specific factors (treehouses, etc.)  |
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Post by BWV Dreamin on Apr 25, 2023 15:43:20 GMT -5
Vis-a-vis the immediate "concrete consequences" acceptable as a discussion topic, I offer the following, which I consider orthogonal to the nettlesome debating points above. (Is this post a squirrel?) Those of us who depend in whole or part upon the stock market for our retirements, and who study the "markets" tab of the WSJ (or Barrons, or similar sources) will be used to articles claiming that traders variously have or have not "already priced in" the probabilities of specified future events. Such events include the Fed raising, holding, or lowering rates, or the EPA announcing new air quality measures, or changes in employment or inflation figures. For those unfamiliar with "pricing in", here are two recent example articles: www.barrons.com/articles/stock-bond-market-fed-rate-warnings-d0ef2f6e (which also provides a great photo of the Marx brothers, for squirrel purposes) and www.barrons.com/livecoverage/stock-market-today-040623/card/stock-futures-wobble-ahead-of-u-s-jobs-report-yU7VWN6N1dglxVNH2hVU?mod=md__news . The latter includes the (putatively three significant figure) statement, "Markets are currently pricing in a 48.3% chance that the central bank holds rates as-is, according to the CME FedWatch Tool." So, my questions regarding immediate concrete consequences are whether (a) DVC and/or (b) DVC point renters and buyers are already "pricing in" probability estimates of a recently proposed, Aulani-like WDW "transient visitor" or hotel tax within the DVC and resale price points and sales projections and ROFR decisions. As a Disney shareholder, I hope and believe the answer to "a" surely should be "yes", as a matter of good business economics analysis. The "b" question seems harder, given the inflationary and other factors affecting resale buyers, sellers, and brokers. Another MagicOwners thread mentions the low prices and high inventory in the resale market currently, as well as broker reluctance to submit low offers to sellers. It might be a good PhD dissertation topic to try and de-convolute the market's future probability estimates of a transient visitor tax from the effects of unrelated inflation, etc. In particular, I wonder if independent DVC point price behavior in CA and HI could give clues. I do not recall seeing detailed state- versus-state price behavior analyses in MouseOwners or MagicOwners, correcting for resort ages and other non-state specific factors (treehouses, etc.) Wow, talk about a thread killer!!! 🤪 |
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Post by cornbread on Apr 25, 2023 20:39:51 GMT -5
Even though the process of needing to run for reelection can make politicians act like idiots, I think the alternative is worse. For example, the Special District formerly known as Reedy Creek has a Board appointed by the Governor and the 5 members do not need to live in Central Florida. Whether the current agreements are voided or not, at some point decisions on zoning, road maintenance, utilities and related maintenance, fire and ambulance service, etc., will be made by this group of 5. Although public input will be allowed, the only accountability is at the Governor’s office. And no matter how many people ever reside in this Special District, it is unlikely that there will be enough that think that “the potholes should be fixed using the Special District’s budget surplus” to oust a Governor. I was talking generics. And I am not here to debate I am asking one final time nicely to take serious debates about politics elsewhere. I am hoping we won't need a rule instated but this thread is just turning into a bad debate on education and politics that I know people are tiring of based on messages I am getting. Trying to be hands off but a few here are making it hard and ignoring comments suggesting the thread not be used this way. Numerous by me and a few other mods and the like.
Thanks to you and the other moderators for all you do. Tougher topic here as it is so centered around Disney. apologies if i went too far off topic. |
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Post by helenabear on Apr 25, 2023 20:56:34 GMT -5
I was talking generics. And I am not here to debate I am asking one final time nicely to take serious debates about politics elsewhere. I am hoping we won't need a rule instated but this thread is just turning into a bad debate on education and politics that I know people are tiring of based on messages I am getting. Trying to be hands off but a few here are making it hard and ignoring comments suggesting the thread not be used this way. Numerous by me and a few other mods and the like. Thanks to you and the other moderators for all you do. Tougher topic here as it is so centered around Disney. apologies if i went too far off topic. Nah, we cool here  |
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Post by henrycpa on Apr 26, 2023 6:42:32 GMT -5
Even though the process of needing to run for reelection can make politicians act like idiots, I think the alternative is worse. For example, the Special District formerly known as Reedy Creek has a Board appointed by the Governor and the 5 members do not need to live in Central Florida. Whether the current agreements are voided or not, at some point decisions on zoning, road maintenance, utilities and related maintenance, fire and ambulance service, etc., will be made by this group of 5. Although public input will be allowed, the only accountability is at the Governor’s office. And no matter how many people ever reside in this Special District, it is unlikely that there will be enough that think that “the potholes should be fixed using the Special District’s budget surplus” to oust a Governor. I was talking generics. And I am not here to debate I am asking one final time nicely to take serious debates about politics elsewhere. I am hoping we won't need a rule instated but this thread is just turning into a bad debate on education and politics that I know people are tiring of based on messages I am getting. Trying to be hands off but a few here are making it hard and ignoring comments suggesting the thread not be used this way. Numerous by me and a few other mods and the like. You are correct. I am out on this as I should have many posts ago. DVC is something we have in common. And it should bring us together. The fact we are having political division on a site dedicated to a public company tells us all we need to know about our society right now. And that is something I never thought I would see in our country. But, as posted by another, I do worry about transient taxes and other issues effecting the pricing of DVC stays. |
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Post by helenabear on Apr 26, 2023 7:34:16 GMT -5
I was talking generics. And I am not here to debate I am asking one final time nicely to take serious debates about politics elsewhere. I am hoping we won't need a rule instated but this thread is just turning into a bad debate on education and politics that I know people are tiring of based on messages I am getting. Trying to be hands off but a few here are making it hard and ignoring comments suggesting the thread not be used this way. Numerous by me and a few other mods and the like. You are correct. I am out on this as I should have many posts ago. DVC is something we have in common. And it should bring us together. The fact we are having political division on a site dedicated to a public company tells us all we need to know about our society right now. And that is something I never thought I would see in our country. But, as posted by another, I do worry about transient taxes and other issues effecting the pricing of DVC stays. The transient taxes at VDH is a big concern for many. The differences between VGC and VDH will be rather large for those booking there. I do wonder how that will affect sales given the high price to sell. I think real issues related to that, as well as this, can be discussed when they arise. |
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Post by henrycpa on Apr 26, 2023 9:01:37 GMT -5
You are correct. I am out on this as I should have many posts ago. DVC is something we have in common. And it should bring us together. The fact we are having political division on a site dedicated to a public company tells us all we need to know about our society right now. And that is something I never thought I would see in our country. But, as posted by another, I do worry about transient taxes and other issues effecting the pricing of DVC stays. The transient taxes at VDH is a big concern for many. The differences between VGC and VDH will be rather large for those booking there. I do wonder how that will affect sales given the high price to sell. I think real issues related to that, as well as this, can be discussed when they arise. I agree. You pay for DVC to have a prepaid vacation. Then you get a significant local tax on top of the high price of DVC and the pretty high point requriement from what I can see. I struggle to understand the difference in cost of this tax between the two California properties but I am certain there is something I do not know in the negotiations Disney had to do to get permission to build this new one. |
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